OK, this is the post that contains everything that everyone on the inside of the browser market knows, but doesn’t say out loud. It’s time for someone to expose the emperor. It’s a shame that the main victim here turns out to be Apple, given that the king of these tactics is Google, but hey, Apple managed to come out with something that was so brash and misleading it deserves a good tear-down. (Google at I/O managed to take native client and the Chrome Store and make it all sound like it was part of html5 – it was beautiful. But that’s for another post on another day.)
First, let’s start with the awesome dichotomy. You start with this:
My god, what a beautiful thing. They are the web. I love that. I could have written it myself. I should have written it myself.
That classic Apple dark headline and light grey subtext that everyone loves. And the text: standards, CSS, JavaScript, web designers, puppies and rainbows. Who could possibly disagree with that? From a marketing perspective, it’s beautiful – non-specific, feels good, it means that Apple loves the web, and loves you.
But how do they prove it?
That’s right. If you’re not on Safari, then Fuck You.
Aside from the incendiary language I’ve used to help you understand how it feels the real underlying message here is that if you don’t have access to Safari then you must not have access to HTML5. Wait, only Safari supports HTML5??
Nope, lots of browsers do. A huge percentage of the world does have access to standards like HTML5. Today. In fact, given the page says html5, you might ask, who has the best html5 support across the browsers right now? Not Safari. Not Chrome. The browser that also happens to have a lot of market share – Firefox:
(The best overall site that gives you useful information for this stuff is actually one that a lot of people don’t use, but should: caniuse.com lovingly maintained in his own time by Alexis Deveria)
Of course, the big problem is that html5 has come to mean a lot of things, mostly thanks to Google. They’ve basically been riding that and flogging it and making it their own. (That and performance – simple, great marketing messaging. I appreciate it, even if the dishonesty of it makes my blood boil.)
And I’m sure that this entire apple site is a result of exactly the same problem we’ve been struggling with at Mozilla as of late. This is best described by a recent experience that we had from a candidate that came in to interview. He asked:
Hey, are you guys ever going to support html5?
Like, what? Are you fucking kidding me? Truth that marketing works. The perception-to-reality gap is giant.
I’m sure this was Apple is having exactly the same problem. Basically they are saying internally “omg, no one thinks we support html5, we need to prove them otherwise! We’ll put up tests! Demos! The world will then know and we can go back to being perceived as actually leading the WebKit project which is also made of puppies and rainbows!”
So you end up with sites like this. Sites that entirely miss the point of the web, interoperability, standards and html5. The demos that they put up are just filled with stuff that Apple made up, aren’t part of HTML5 and are only now getting to the standards process. Part of CSS3? Kind of, sort of, but under heavy development and still in a feedback process.
Let me be clear. I’m being snarky here essentially to get your attention. Because this is actually important. And if there’s one paragraph you should read here it’s this one:
The most important aspect of HTML5 isn’t the new stuff like video and canvas (which Safari and Firefox have both been shipping for years) it’s actually the honest-to-god promise of interoperability. Even stodgy old Microsoft, who has been doing their best to hold back the web for nearly a decade, understands this and you’ll see it throughout their marketing for IE9. (Their marketing phrase is “same markup” – watch for it and you’ll see it everywhere in their messaging.) The idea that the same markup, even with mistakes, will be rendered exactly the same. HTML5 represents the chance for browsers to work together and find common ground.
Before people misunderstand me, this is different than the question of how we innovate in browsers. Standards are part of that process, but standards follow more often than lead. HTML5 contains lots of new stuff that isn’t in IE, so it looks innovative, but most of HTML5 is like breathing to Mozilla. We’ve been doing that stuff for years. We’re more interested in what’s next at this point.
But it’s unfortunate, and I guess inevitable, that browsers would compete on how much html5 they are bathed in. But it’s important to ask: when you see someone making a claim, what does it really mean? Is that a made up test by a vendor? A demo of something that goes well beyond the standards that exist? (Tons of room for that, but it should be labeled as such!) Is it a test that is designed to show off other browser’s bugs in a meaningful and constructive way? Does the person running the tests know what they are doing and respond to constructive comments?
Apple’s messaging is clearly meant to say “hey, we love the web” but the actual demos they have and the fact that actively block other browsers from those demos don’t match their messaging. It’s not intellectually honest at all.
Since you made it this far I’ll make a promise. I can’t go back and fix the past, but I can help propose a new future. I personally end up driving a lot of the messaging that comes out of Mozilla (although maybe I won’t be after this post!) I promise that:
- I’ll be as honest as I can be about what we’re doing, what it means to other browsers and even to the new darling brand of the web: html5.
- I’ll work to make sure that demos that Mozilla does work in as many browsers as possible, even with graceful fallback.
- Demos or messages that are meant to show off stuff that’s not part of any standards process at all will be labeled as such.
HTML5 is in a dangerous place since everyone wants to own it, but everyone is in a different place in terms of support or even what it means. I can’t promise what other organizations will do, but I can at least say what I will do in the future. At Mozilla, intellectual honesty matters and it matters to me personally. So I don’t think you’ll see us do things like this in the future. To us, the web and its users matter more than any particular standard or browser. And you’ll see that reflected in messaging that comes from me and shows up as marketing.
@bunny – your naked animosity toward this “cult of mac” bogeyman says as much about you as them. Good night.
@bunny – goading you is much too easy. I’ll stop now before you use “moron” for the umpteenth time.
I don’t understand how people are making the assumption that Apple is being a dick just because of this browser sniffing. Not all of the examples will work in other browser, so… um…. what’s the problem? That other browsers are lagging behind? That’s not Apple’s fault. They don’t work in older versions of Safari either but Apple got off it’s arse and fixed that. I don’t know what more Apple can do to promote web standards other than create the most standards compliant rendering engine and show people what kinds of cool shit it can do. How are they being dicks here?
The browser sniffing is needed. You could argue that they should have gone for feature sniffing, but it’s six of one and half a dozen of the other.
You missed this part:
HTML5 Showcase
The demos below show how the latest version of Apple’s Safari web browser, new Macs, and new Apple mobile devices all support the capabilities of HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript.
It’s a demo of Safari. Of course you need Safari.
HTML5 standardizes existing browser behaviors. At one time, Safari was the only browser that supported canvas, just like today it’s the only browser that supports 3D transforms. Developers and users are supposed to demo Safari and demand these features in their own browsers, and use these features in their own work. That’s how browsers compete and make progress.
This is not an academic spec like HTML4, and we’re not trying to freeze the Web. If you want to make a Web browser today you have to make progress or you will lose your users to another browser that is making progress.
Of course in a production setting you use progressive enhancement, but this is a browser demo, not a production setting.
People who are unhappy being told to download Safari: then don’t. You are obviously not interested in this demo. No, the demos do not work in your browser, even if it is Chrome, same as Google has Chrome demos that show off V8 and ovviously don’t work in Safari.
Google also has HTML5 apps that only work in Chrome. Not demos, but actual apps.
No, this demo is not like Microsoft. Microsoft never had an open source browser engine or submitted code for standardization or was using an HTML spec that standardized existing behavior. Other browser vendors had to reverse engineer IE behaviors which were not even consistent.
> CSS3 implementation have seemed slow
That is why Apple is showing off that their CSS implementation is so much better than others, even Chrome who is using WebKit but has broken stuff. If you want CSS to move faster, instead of knocking Apple, call out Mozilla and Microsoft and even Google for their ugly, ugly rendering.
People are saying “Wahhhh, I can’t use Flash on iPad, HTML5 is not there yet,” ignoring that Flash is still Intel-only today with the exception of a tiny, tiny handful of Android v2.2 devices that can download and run a Flash beta, and Apple is saying “look at what you can do on iPad with a few lines of HTML, CSS, and JavaScript you moron.”
> when the HTML5 spec has stabilized
It will never stabilize. There will always be features some browsers don’t support right now, however they will soon. So you build using progressive enhancement for the basic browser and then add the HTML5 features you want. The browsers that are using fallback content will go down over time and the ones seeing your full presentation will go up.
> yet, still, feels like Flash can do all that and more
FlashPlayer v10.1 system requirements:
* Intel P4 2GHz or better with 2GB of RAM
* Mac OS, Linux, or 32-bit Windows operating system
Although it’s preinstalled on the above systems, about 10-20% of users are running a Flash blocker. Others are running 64-bit Windows, or BSD, or Solaris, or an ARM or PowerPC CPU. Lots of others are running XP with an older FlashPlayer. You are lucky to get 70% of PC’s today with Flash. About 4-5 times per year there is a zero-day vulnerability (there is one today) and more Flash blockers are installed.
FlashPlayer v10.1 for Mobiles is in beta and that beta only runs on Android v2.2, which at most will run on 10% of existing Android phones due to hardware requirements, it takes months to get the update out through carriers, and even worse, v2.2 will only ship with at most 25% of Android phones this year (e.g. Dell Streak ships this summer with v1.6, 75% of Android continues to be v1.6), and even worse, Flash will not preinstall on Android, the user will have to download it, and it causes their browser to slow down to a crawl, after which they will have to resist uninstalling it. There’s no timeframe for support on any other ARM-based system.
So Flash continues to be essentially non-existent on mobiles. Maybe that is not important to you, but 1) the Web’s primary function is to be the one universal part of the Internet, and 2) it’s important to Apple because 75% of their business is mobiles. So, yes, they are going to encourage you to use these basic techniques to make great-looking content that runs on iPad and can easily run on other mobiles if the vendor does the work to implement WebKit.
The debate is not “what can Flash do?” it’s “how can I make flashy pages now that Flash is not universal?”
And it is much, much easier to implement these Apple examples than any Flash. First, you only need basic HTML skills, not Flash skills, and not even advanced HTML skills. Second, even if you have Flash skills and tools, the work to do these examples is just much harder, it’s much more work in Flash. Flash is a chore to work in at all times. And most of all, it’s easy to implement these Apple examples with fallbacks that make them universal, while Flash will show a hole in the page to users who don’t have Flash. We are talking about some extra CSS and JavaScript on top of a universal HTML presentation here, it’s very easy.
Basically, everyone has to take the time to reeducate themselves as they personally transition from the IE6/Flash/PC Web (not HTML4, which failed) to the HTML5/universal Web. There are a number of philosophical changes. You can’t assume anything about the user’s hardware (not even a mouse or keyboard or large screen or Intel processor) and you cannot assume any software except “Web browser”, not even “HTML5 Web browser” and not plug-ins since they are all 32-bit Intel only, and you have to use progressive enhancement because the HTML5 spec will never be done, it will evolve along with the browsers, there is no “pure” HTML5. Browsers compete now by coming up with cool new features and offering them for standardization, same as how the canvas tag was done, and once they’re standardized, the nonstandard implementations are fixed.
So an HTML5 browser can certainly run demos that don’t work in other HTML5 browsers. That is an essential part of moving forward. The key is HTML5 is backwards-compatible, your production work doesn’t have to shut anybody out, and notice Apple’s website does not demand you use Safari, only demos of Safari require Safari.
Dude it was a page marketing Safari and that it supports HTML5 and CSS3 – of course its going to message the user to download Safari in order to test it out. IDIOT!
go to this link: http://developer.apple.com/safaridemos/
i can play all the demo using Google Chrome Browser.
Let me ask you this, if apple put up a demo and then said hey look at the stuff you can do with HTML5 and someone goes there with a browser that doesn’t work what would that person say. Would they flame apple and say HTML5 doesn’t work why not just use flash? Why does apple get flamed for everything they do? Isn’t this just more hating on apple?
The author is wrong (well trolling) and totally screwing with the facts.
Apple supports web standards in their browser and on their websites and built a showcase of what is just now becoming available natively across the web. They ask you to download the Safari Browser because:
a) none of the other browsers have gotten this far in supporting what coming down the pipe;
b) the standards are being finalized – always a tussle in the final stages of any wave of change;
c) none of the other browser makers can be trusted to support these standards yet (especially Microsoft who have employed the embrace and replace policy towards code and standards for 15 years, at least with respect to the web);
d) duh, it guarantees the user experience right here in this showcase of stuff that isn’t widespread just yet, …the whole point of the exercise is a discussion about standardization and openness of user experience, available to all, inside the browser (and without plugins that utilize a $500 authoring tool built by one company);
e) they are a business, why wouldn’t provide a link to their browser?
Only the author here added the <>
Seems as though Apple is doing everyone a favor here by building another excellent free browser and spurring competition.
Say what you will about whether Apple’s overall ecosystem is open or closed, when it comes to the browser, they play fair –with the user’s experience being paramount. Imagine if all this was in a new Apple Plugin or only played in the Safari browser built on code not agreed upon in the W3C …or required use of extension(s) that sidestep the standards? Oh wait, that’s what all the other major browser vendors do…
Microsoft tried and failed at the plugin model, Firefox and Chrome confuse things and create fractured experiences with the whole extensions mess… and Adobe, well fuck Flash. That’s what this is really about. The plugin model is so bloody over… one giant security stargate for a whole universe of shit to pour through. Adobe hasn’t fundamentally changed anything in the 15 years since they (Macromedia) bought FutureSplash. They had 15 years to open this up and make ActionScript a standard and vector rendering part of core browser render engine …or something. But they cling on to their freaking little plugin that requires continuous updates …nearly as much as say, Firefox.
Flash was Adobe/Macromedia’s answer to Visual Basic and OSX, it’s whole existence is a response to a world that no longer exists. A little brother to Director. It’s an interaction minefield, the cursor gets trapped in the middle of the page where standards, rules, font legibility, usability and target sizes for touch are non-existence.
Oh BTW another critical advisory **today** June 5, 2010 for Flash Player & Acrobat with no published fix: http://www.adobe.com/support/security/advisories/apsa10-01.html
Fuck Adobe.
the recommended fix:
http://rentzsch.github.com/clicktoflash/
and in Chrome you can disable Flash plugin.
also this blog is not standards-based. recaptcha doesn’t load in some browsers.
The Apple apologists are out in full force, I see.
Keep it up, guys. One day you’ll run out of excuses.
I think you guys are missing the point of the article. If Apple had said that they are working on adding more Safari features like HTML5 and other things, and then linked to the examples, it wouldn’t be a big deal. It’s misleading marketing. Apple seems to be saying that they ARE the web and that this is the new standards, and if your browser doesn’t work than clearly you are NOT standard and using something obsolete. It’s retarded. It’s just Apple pretending like they are revolutionalizing and changing the world all over again, like they are “doing with their iPads”(Apparently Laptops and computers are outdated now, according to them I only need an iPad! derp)
Apple likes masquerading with the cover that they are using “standards” and then alienating everyone by making us all use Apple only software, which defeats the point of standards in the first place. Standards are for interoperability. If there’s no interoperability why bother? Because it sounds nice to the people. It makes it sound and look like everyone is following APPLE. That APPLE is setting the standards of the computing future. This, I object to, along with hardware locking, retarded restrictions, and over pricing.
And this is why I generally don’t support Apple(Though I do love their LLVM and Clang projects, bravo on that one)
I think this article is wrong from the very beginning. Apple’s HTML5 demos are intended to show developers the range of non-flash tools they can use when programming for apple devices such as iPhone, iPad, Macs with Snow Leo, etc.
That’s why you need to download / test with Safari.
As apple points: Every new Apple mobile device and every new Mac — along with the latest version of Apple’s Safari web browser — supports web standards including HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript.”
For what it is worth…
I wanted to share my experience with all of you. I am NOT a developer or invested in tech/desgin fields in anyway.
I read a small number feeds concerning Apple issues and know a (very) small amount.
My experience going to Apple’s HTML5 demo was:
“Apple supports a new HTML protocol. Apparently Firefox doesn’t.”
(I use Firefox and have only owned Apple computers my whole life.)
@Hamranhansenhansen
“And it is much, much easier to implement these Apple examples than any Flash. First, you only need basic HTML skills, not Flash skills, and not even advanced HTML skills. Second, even if you have Flash skills and tools, the work to do these examples is just much harder, it’s much more work in Flash. Flash is a chore to work in at all times.”
I bet you actually don’t use the tools that much, the tone of your post makes me think you just want to make generalizing statements
The examples rely on JavaScript for much of their interactivity. For instance the 360 rotation works by replacing the image with 71 other images taken from a slightly different angle.
if you do it with ActionScript which is used in flash the skill would eb exactly the same. both languages are buitl from the same core ECMAScript.
You ask:
“Who has the best html5 support across the browsers right now? Not Safari. Not Chrome. The browser that also happens to have a lot of market share – Firefox.”
But the chart shows that Firefox, Safari, and Chrome are in a dead heat “right now” at 90%.
Who’s intellectually dishonest now?
Perhaps by “right now” you mean someday in the future? That makes no sense.
@Christopher
—-
Quote…
The tests show IE9 passing with 100% everything (surprise!) but a lot of the tests are just wrong.
—-
We’d love to hear it if you find an incorrect test. We fixed a few minor errors between our first and second Platform Preview releases, and we’re committed to accuracy. These tests are engineering spec tests for us as we work on IE9, to ensure that we deliver on our commitment to implement the standards in a consistent and interoperable manner. The fact that we pass 100% of them shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone – of course, you’d expect us to fix errors that we uncover in our own testing process. Where Firefox and others don’t pass the tests, that’s an opportunity for those browsers to take advantage of our test cases to improve interoperability. Surely that’s something we should all be celebrating?
Best wishes,
Tim Sneath | Microsoft
@Rambo Tribble on June 5, 2010 at 9:46 am
Apple has been misleading customers since at least the late ’70s when the advertised, in the Wall Street Journal no less, that you could run 32 users off a single Apple II Plus. Good luck with that.
Just what the hell does your comment mean. In 1978 an Apple ][ could support hundreds (millions?) of users... Just not concurrently. In 1980, Saratoga High School, Saratoga California installed a computer lab with 15 Apple ][ computers networked to share a 5 MB Corvus HD.
I think your post is misleading, at best!
.
@Christopher
This is all dishonest BS?
OOOO Apple put up a page on their company website promoting their own product big F-ing deal what part of that is dishonest. Here’s some demos, download our product to see them. So what, happens everyday.
QUIT CARRYING GOOGLES WATER, WITHOUT GOOGLE YOU DON’T HAVE A JOB THEY FUND YOU, HOW HONEST ARE YOU YOU’RE AN EVANGELIST SLAMMING A COMPETITOR OF THE COMPANY THAT WRITES YOUR CHECKS!!!!
I hope Safari Mobile will not be the new Internet Explorer 6.
@p
What are you talking about?
Can you tell me just a single scenario where Safari could be the “new Internet Explorer 6″?
I think this article is sour grapes.
Obviously, Apple can’t guarantee that other browsers will work with HTML5. Google’s Chrome browser doesn’t have parts of HTML5 yet. Thus it is good of Apple to have people use Safari to see how much HTML5 can do for them.
Nothing more.
Sour Grapes, from what I see. Particularly if you use the word “fuck”. That goes to show what kind of person you are.
The author’s problem seems to be that Apple isn’t providing free marketing for other companies’ browsers. Wake me up when Mozilla starts promoting Safari. Then perhaps my “care” circuit will engage.
HTML5 – not yet a finalized, that could take years, even longer until it has ubiquitous web browser support.
Since Apple picked to side with HTML5 and not Flash, and since Flash is so popular, I think Apple wants people to see the alternative to Flash in the best light, can you do that today? Look at the state of HTML5 support on every web browser.
Or they can have requirements of, only use such and such a browser, version such and such, but not that older version you have installed, oh no, not that other browser either. How much time and manpower would they need to make their demo seem great on everyone’s web browser when really, what will their customer’s be using on their iPhones, iPods, iPads?
Yes, marketing works. It’s how we got the present Administration too.
It’s why we need better mechanisms to flag false information (as best as can be done.)
@eddie2453 and everyone else
You are wrong.
Apple is looking for an alternative to Flash, but “in their own NEW devices”.
This is not about “the state of html5 support on every browsers”. It’s just Safari. Latest builds of Safari, in their latest devices.
It’s really clear: “Every NEW Apple mobile device and every NEW Mac — along with the LATEST version of Apple’s Safari web browser — supports web standards including HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript.”
What part of this you don’t get yet?
i actually just hit that page a few days ago and had that same “fuck you” feeling as you describe prior to reading your article. I was using chrome on a and I have to get safari out to view a HTML demo WTF? seriously ?
so thank you for writing this. you are very correct.
Er,… Firefox 4.0? Where? I can’t find it anywhere on the mozilla website. I even typed in “Firefox 4.0″ in the search box on mozilla.com while using Firefox 3.6.4 beta (which is also hard to find, but I did find it).
And what about Modernizer?
http://www.modernizr.com/
With Firefox 3.6.4, there are lots of green checkmarks missing from the list. With Webkit, all the checkmarks are there, while Safari has everything except the Geolocation API. Are you sure Firefox actually supports more HTML5 stuff? This isn’t another Adobe-like promise of it-soon-will-but-you-cant-have-it-yet, is it? If it’s not out there being used, then it’s just a rumor.
If you are going to stand on Firefox 4.0, then do it AFTER it’s available and in everyday people’s hands. Safari is out there on millions of devices and being used right now with more support for HTML5 than Firefox 3.6.4. Firefox 4.0 isn’t, it’s still in the laboratory. Let us all use it right now if it’s as ready as you say it is, and then you can point to reality instead of merely making a claim.
News Flash. PC users hate Apple. But it’s become a rage because Apple is on top and Microsoft looks like a braindead, lumbering idiot. BOO HOO you pissy babies. Go join the Google Tea Party already and STFU.
This is really weird, but if you go to
http://developer.apple.com/safaridemos/
you can do the demos in any browser. Only at
http://developer.apple.com/html5
do they do a browser check.
@NicolasP.
“You are wrong.
Apple is looking for an alternative to Flash, but “in their own NEW devices”.”
This is what I said too! But you say I’m wrong, are you one of those who thinks only words from your mouth are right?
You lost me on the second part, so Apple is committed to support HTML5 in Safari period. So? Safari on Macs can still use Flash and HTML5 but not on iPhoneOS. The reason they are making such a fuss, they want HTML5 to be seen as a viable alternative on iPhoneOS. This marketing shit isn’t about regular Macs. Maybe its you who don’t understand whats going down.
Once again a seriously honest post devolves into fanboys gone wild.
I think the authors only fault is that he went too deep to explain the obvious.
HTML 5. Doesnt exist. It doesnt work. End of story.
Browser features that are not spec compliant in an unimplemented uncertified untestable spec are just more of the same garbage regardless of their source.
They might as well be the tag
I didnt escape my last sentence I said they might as well be the <blink> tag
@bob
HTML5 exist alright, its just not final and its years from being the standard on the web. What Apple is doing, or any company really, they are endorsing the hell out of HTML5, the good thing about this for HTML5 is, now has (more) momentum than if nobody cared. Everyone knows about HTML5 now, if Apple didn’t do this (sure, out of their own selfish reasons), then no one would care much about HTML5. It will take less time for HTML5 to go mainstream, because some big company is endorsing the heck out of it.
@nico: the demos at http://developer.apple.com/safaridemos do not all work in Chrome. In particular try switching the gallery example to \Horizontal 3D\ – Chrome does not support 3D transforms and thus flattens the effect (still functional but not rendered the same).
I agree the risk of loosing interoperability is high and so also of building an other Babel tower. But I think Mozilla.org should start with passing acid test 3 acid3.acidtests.org.
these kind of sites (acidtests.org, canuse.com) are our only hope.
@Tim Sneath
When I write software, I commonly write tests to ensure things don’t regress, check my assumptions are correct, and to fix edge cases.
But when I write software to a *public specification*, I include as many tests from as many sources as possible. This ensures it works to the same baseline as every other implementation.
There are plenty of public tests you didn’t write and you don’t pass. I am quite surprised that this is the engineering standard IE9 engineering holds itself to. Is this really a case of “the tests weren’t invented here”?
HTML5 is working great in Safari on my iPad.
Well it’s pretty obvious the author of this article don’t have a clue what he’s talking about, he intentionally misinterpret, transforms until the meaning of whatever is told agrees with his twisted understanding.
I condemn this blog for not being HTML5 compatible.
Hi Christopher, thanks for the extensive reply on my previous post.
All of your responses make a lot of sense to me. But, I haven’t heard about many of these! I read all of Planet Mozilla, so I tend to think I’m tuned in to what the larger Mozilla ecosystem is thinking/doing. I also hang around in IRC and am CC’ed on several bugs (for example, the websocket one, so I know about the progress made there).
But, your whole angle about Webkit’s Forms support is new to me. I only remember the post announcing the work from the SoC guy, and that seemed rather late to the party. I’m very sympathetic to your getting-it-right-the-first-time sentiment, but I also think there is value in a UI that’s not yet as customizable by CSS as we would want it to be, if that gets it done sooner.
I mostly know 5-forms from Mark Pilgrim’s page in his HTML5 book about them, and that looked very much like something I want. That’s a huge list of things Fx doesn’t support that would very much help me out, right there. Getting a first pass into my hands which doesn’t have the customizability via CSS or the perfect UI yet is still valuable.
Good to hear work on CSS3 transitions is underway. Please do a post on why Animations aren’t that interesting! I bet hacks.mozilla.org is a good place for that, especially if you do it by showing off stuff that can be done with transitions. Similarly, keep voicing the concerns about WebSQL and why IndexedDB is better.
I *like* the fact that Mozilla is keeping a cool head about all the new stuff out there and not just implementing anything, but comparing by just ticking off feature boxes is much easier (and easier to spin). So if you don’t want to be condemned, be sure to get the message out there.
Apple are simply promoting ‘HTML5′. Thats all they are doing. Is that a bad thing? Bullshit. Yes they are taking the opportunity to prompt users to download Safari but that is there prerogative. Its there website.
Apple are saying that they are behind HTML5 and they support it.
I really can’t believe this shit. Web designers and developers have wanted browsers and indeed some notoriety of web standards for ever and as soon as a very public company like Apple market and promote the idea of things like HTML5 and web standards they get bashed for it. And what a surprise, its someone from Mozilla. Fuck off.
I don’t understand the hoopla around Apple requiring Safari for their HTML5 demo. Safari is their browser, and, of course, they want people to use it. Anyone half savvy knows they can alter the User Agent string to fool a website; thus, if someone really wants to use another browser they can. But, from Apple’s perspective, they know how their HTML5 demo will render since they control Safari. And, Apple is all about the user experience. That is why I think Apple encourages the demo using Safari, not some nefarious plan to suggest to the world that only Safari can render HTML5.
@eddie2453
I think (sorry, I forgot to say “I think you’re wrong” in my last comment”) this isn’t too much about Macs. As you said, Safari supports flash, Macs support flash.
But I think the battlefield here is Mobile territory. That’s the main fight Apple have now with Google and Adobe and developers. Tell me if I’m wrong. I know that HTML5 is far from being complete “usable”. I also know “HTML5″ it’s becoming more and more a marketing word.
But just let me point two things:
1. Apple is talking about HTML5 in their new devices. Not html5 in all web browsers, and that’s because Apple is sending a message to their iPhone and iPad developers. They need to showcase that works well in their new devices. They don’t care if it works on firefox. And I can’t see what’s wrong with that.
Aditionally, maybe they’re giving a few hints for the rest of us.
2. I admit there’s a tricky paragraph on HTML5 Apple’s page:
“…new Macs, and new Apple mobile devices all support the capabilities of HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript. Not all browsers offer this support. But soon other modern browsers will take advantage of these same web standards — and the amazing things they enable web designers to do.”
I think common people reading that could assume other browsers don’t support html and css3 at all.
Mozillians seem to become such a bunch of morons these times. Do you forget that all your latest HTML5 and Web standards demos require *Minefiled* to be run???
@John Ripley
Thanks for your considered response. But I don’t think at any point I suggested that the only tests we cared about passing were the ones we wrote.
On our ietestdrive.com site, you’ll see a prominent link to the CSS3 selectors test, for example. That’s a great example of a test suite – clear, precise tests that exhaustively test for interoperability. We’d like to see a lot more tests like this in the web community, which is why we submitted our own test cases to the W3C.
That said, I think we should all recognize that some standards are further advanced than others. Where there’s not clear consensus that a technology is part of the future of the web (e.g. Ogg Vorbis, Web SQL Database), it’s strange to see “tests” out there that weight these as strongly as SVG or Canvas, and don’t actually check for conformance. For example, the source code of html5test.com is a fascinating read – element.canPlayType(‘video/ogg’) == ‘maybe’ is enough to give you five points on their test! Yet some people quote tests like this as if it has greater weight than the CSS selector test.
It’s been an interesting debate – thanks for the originating thread, Christopher.
Tim Sneath | Microsoft
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Wow, reading these comments from the apple fan boyz didn’t actually read the article. All you say was a sentence that said something negitive about apple and got your pantyhose in a bunch and dropped your $10 cup of shitty coffee. The entire point of this article is that what apple is doing is NOT promoting HTML5 or CSS3 but soling promoting safari as the pos browser it is. HTML5 is MEANT to be open. This blog is very well written in that he states that yes, other companies will design things but why lock it down? What are you afraid of? That it will work better in a competing browser? I installed safari once on a PC. It took all forever to get it off. Even the uninstaller wouldn’t get everything off. Had to manually clean out my registry. Before a apple fan boy rings in on that statement it was APPLES product that did that not microsoft. I run gentoo on most of my computers but do have windows on some as well being a systems administrator i support and work on both OS’s. The point is, what apple is doing is HURTING html5 not HELPING the cause. Its contradicting itself when steve blowjobs says apple is all about openness yet locks its openness to his browser. If people can’t see that is really whats on his agenda then we are doomed to be under a harsher dictatorship then if microsoft controlled everything.
Very, very nice article !
Sums up pretty much what I think. I’ll be doing a french translation for us French-only speaking people.
Btw I wrote a little “360″ demo but the way Apple should have done it: cross-browser, will work from IE to iPhone/Safari. Just like their demo, it doesn’t use any HTML 5 feature, and will even work in any HTML 4 browser:
http://www.warpdesign.fr/html4/showcase/threesixty/
@hamranhansenhansen
“You missed this part:
“HTML5 Showcase
The demos below show how the latest version of Apple’s Safari web browser, new Macs, and new Apple mobile devices all support the capabilities of HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript.
It’s a demo of Safari. Of course you need Safari.”
No, actually it’s a demo of HTML5 which is why it’s titled HTML5 showcase and not Safari showcase and only shows the HTML5 features of Safari an no others. When you miss this point, you lose credibility.
“People who are unhappy being told to download Safari: then don’t. You are obviously not interested in this demo. No, the demos do not work in your browser, even if it is Chrome, same as Google has Chrome demos that show off V8 and ovviously don’t work in Safari.”
Yes, actually they work quite fine in Chrome as many have already attested to. I believe one demo partially worked and that was it. Please KNOW/GET your facts straight because this is the source of the main frustration.
“Google also has HTML5 apps that only work in Chrome. Not demos, but actual apps.”
And where is Google’s HTML5 showcase that forces you to get chrome and doesn’t allow you to even TRY the demo to see how far your current browser is behind? Apple is WAY to ahead of themselves here.
No, this demo is not like Microsoft. Microsoft never had an open source browser engine or submitted code for standardization or was using an HTML spec that standardized existing behavior. Other browser vendors had to reverse engineer IE behaviors which were not even consistent.
“That is why Apple is showing off that their CSS implementation is so much better than others, even Chrome who is using WebKit but has broken stuff. If you want CSS to move faster, instead of knocking Apple, call out Mozilla and Microsoft and even Google for their ugly, ugly rendering.”
You mean the ugly rendering that just put the smack down on safari on ipad and iphone when run from Android that literally ran circles around safari speed wise….yeah whatever.
“People are saying “Wahhhh, I can’t use Flash on iPad, HTML5 is not there yet,” ignoring that Flash is still Intel-only today with the exception of a tiny, tiny handful of Android v2.2 devices that can download and run a Flash beta, and Apple is saying “look at what you can do on iPad with a few lines of HTML, CSS, and JavaScript you moron.””
Intel only? Really, funny how it runs on my AMD machine just fine, funny also that there are no fewer than two open source flash players for linux machines at this point too. Oh but they don’t support ALL the features of Flash, yep, sort of like your HTML5 specs aren’t supported by all the browsers. In both cases the word you are looking for is YET. Do you have ANY clue what you are posting about or just assume that a long, error ridden post makes you more correct?
> yet, still, feels like Flash can do all that and more
“FlashPlayer v10.1 system requirements:
* Intel P4 2GHz or better with 2GB of RAM
* Mac OS, Linux, or 32-bit Windows operating system
Although it’s preinstalled on the above systems, about 10-20% of users are running a Flash blocker. Others are running 64-bit Windows, or BSD, or Solaris, or an ARM or PowerPC CPU. Lots of others are running XP with an older FlashPlayer. You are lucky to get 70% of PC’s today with Flash. About 4-5 times per year there is a zero-day vulnerability (there is one today) and more Flash blockers are installed.”
Heeeey genius! Little news flash for you. Flash runs on 64 bit windows, again, it’s very obvious that you DON’T HAVE A CLUE. People who use 64 bit windows are NOT necessarily using 64bit IE which doesn’t support Flash because….wait for it….THEY WANT FLASH! DUH!
“FlashPlayer v10.1 for Mobiles is in beta”
Ya and it’s the EXACT SAME CODEBASE as the deskstop 10.1 which they have stated. OOPS, there goes your system reqs. Funny how you ignore the demos showing flash getting 25-30 fps for animations while HTML5 averages 10-12. Yeah, that’s the progress I want.
“So Flash continues to be essentially non-existent on mobiles.”
Right, mobiles didn’t have any flash player before this…again clueless poster, flash lite (which is crap) but is still a version of flash, has been on mobiles for years and also Android users don’t have to wait for carrier updates to get 10.1 at all, it was available from the same day they announced it at Google I/O.
“The debate is not “what can Flash do?” it’s “how can I make flashy pages now that Flash is not universal?””
Apparently that’s only a debate in YOUR head because nobody, including Apple is trying to spew that complete bullshit.
“And it is much, much easier to implement these Apple examples than any Flash.”
No actually it’s not. You can look at the HTML5 spiderman demo, check how long it took the dev to create something which would have taken maybe 1 hour in flash. It’s HARDER/LONGER to dev. certain things in HTML5 than it is Flash. Actually devs. know this and it’s apparent that not only are you NOT a dev but you don’t even speak to any.
“and not plug-ins since they are all 32-bit Intel only”
Wrong again, use google before you post, it makes you look a lot less like an uninformed ignorant dumbass.
“Apple’s website does not demand you use Safari, only demos of Safari require Safari.”
You are too stupid for words.
I think that if the point of the HTML5 page was to demo HTML5 capabilities then Apple have failed to achieve that by insisting that users download Safari.
(Yeah – like a Chrome user is going to do that…) There are graceful ways that they could support other webkit browsers (such as Chrome as on the Safari devs site) or Firefox (which is very HTML5 compatible). Even Opera should cope with many of the demos.
Apple have missed an opportunity to build support for adopting HTML5 sooner than later and yet again just annoyed a bunch of people when they should have been showcasing a mature technology. Some marketing bunny has obviously seen this as a way to showcase Safari not HTML5. Not a problem – showcase Safari – it’s a great browser. BUT use the URL http://www.apple.com/safari NOT http://www.apple.com/HTML5 . Dumb, very dumb. Buy a clue Apple… PeterSW
This is exactly what Fedora does in the Linux distro space; ship stuff before it is ‘done’ and blessed by the high priests of upstream. They don’t seem to cop any flak for that, why should Apple?
Does apple pay people to write stupid shit on every blog in the universe or are the fanboys really that dumb?